Urbanara

Urban planning and life in Korea and France / l\’Urbanisme et la vie en Corée et France

Historical relationship of Korea and China

Posted by urbanara on January 18, 2006

I had good conversations with Matt and Ponta in the post Nationalism in Korea. Ponta’s questions from the post led to sino-korean relationship. I decided to make another post instead of making a follow-up comment because i find the use of the comment for a long post rather hard.

 

情(jou) is humane emotion in Japanese. It is evaluated highly but it is also emphasized in Japan that you should not let 情 rule you.

I guess that’s one of the differences between Korea and Japan. Thank you for the japanese pronounciation of the word. (I hope to learn Japanese some day.)

Do you think China had good terms with Korea when Korea had been subordinate to China?
For instance,
The king of Korea was appointed by China.
The status of King of Korea was below Chinese courtier
http://park6.wakwak.com/~photo/image/min05.jpg
Korea government had no right to produce money.
Korea had to send 3000 women to China every year.

Korea was subordinate to China but it was a voluntary move rather than being forced. China was regarded as a big brother to Korea and Korea was regarded as a small brother for China. While Viet Nam had continuous confilct with China, Korea chose to remain peaceful with China lowering her status. But it was not a big deal for Korea because it was voluntary and just formal. The relationship also fitted well into the Confucian ideology (hierarchy) which had absolute power in Korea.  

It was subordination in appearance but Korea had all the freedom. China didn’t force anything but just wanted to be treated as a big brother. Such relationship started from Lee Seong-Gye who started Joseon (Chosun) dynasty of Korea. He was against the plan of General Choi who wanted to conquer Lyaodong in China. He turned the army at the border and he created his own dynasty. He was against the plan because he saw revolting of a small nation against a big nation immoral. Very unambitious but truly confucian.

His ideology continued through the whole Joseon dynasty for 500 years. He wanted that China has the final choice for the name of the new dynasty, thus Joseon. Korea paid tribute (朝貢) to China every year. It was reciprocal because China always gave something to Korea for the tribute. The list didn’t include any woman unlike what you know. Women had to be sent for Mongolian Empire and to Qing Dynasty after the war but Ming dynasty of China never demanded them.

The appointment of Korean king is another thing to make clear. Korean king was wholly decided by Koreans. So there were considerable conflicts when the heir was not clear. Korea always notified the new king to China but Chinese emperor never objected to the decision of Koreans even when there was an unjustifiable coup d’etat. It was not more than a formal gesture.

The money thing is also something unheard of. Maybe you misunderstood from the fact that Joseon dynasty had no important money. Back then, commerce was very weak in Korea. People self-supplied most things and commerce was discouraged by the government. Money was not in much use in Korea.

 

The picture above is a Korean money created in 1633. I don’t see any reason for China to prohibit money for Koreans. They were not economic rivals at all and money was not an important thing in both of the confucian countries. 

I am not quite sure of the status of the king of Korea compared to Chinese courtiers. What is certain is that visit of Chinese envoys to Korea was a very important matter. The envoys were known as quite arrogant and Koreans couldn’t object to such attitude.

But Iljinhoe 일진회 一進会, which consited of hundreds of thousands of political members, invited Japan.
Kim wang sop 

I thank you for the photo. I like old photos and this one is new to me. I didn’t even know about the pro-japanese association. (Il-jin-hoi in Korean) According to an encyclopedia, it is a Korean association (1904-1910) which advocated rule of Japan. It was dissolved as soon as Korea was annexed to Japan. I guess many Koreans are not aware of the existence of this association. Now the name of the association is widely used for gangster groups in middle and high schools. I wonder why Korean journalists with full of anti japanese spirit didn’t point this out. (I know they don’t study though.)

It is not right to compare two requests here. People’s liberation army came to Korea by the official request of North Korean government. And NK didn’t want the establishment of Chinese rule in Korea. In other hands, the association mentioned was non official and was demanding Japanese rule in Korea. 

I am not claiming the colonization was right, it was wrong.But in my view, Korea was humiliated by China just as bad as Japan. If so, I wonder why is it that Koreans have grudges only against Japan.

I understand your frustration as a Japanese who is interested in the relationship of Japan and Korea. But your view is different from what many Koreans think. Korea was not humiliated by China. Korea had a vassal relationship with China but the relationship didn’t force anything against the wil of Koreans. The relationship was enjoyed by the elite group of Korea. They even called themselves as a small China (小中華). The elite group didn’t forget the help of Ming dynasty in Seven years war with Japan, either. China played the same role what US did in Korea War. Chinese help in the war was crucial to oust Japanese from Korea. That’s why Koreans helped Ming dyansty later against Qing dynasty although Ming was withering out.  

Modern Koreans may not be warm to China but they don’t hate the country because she never harmed Korea noticeably. The only noticeable thing may be the Chinese intervention in Korean War. I think that’s the role of China in the division of Korea that you mentioned. But it’s not something that China can be blamed 100%. North Korean government wanted her intervention. If China had come to Korea without request, Koreans would have felt grudge against the nation. But in this case, we cannot help blaming North Korean government which wanted to take over South with all means. It was Kim Il-Sung, the former North Korean leader who stirred up Soviet Union which was ambivalent to his plan; it was also him who pulled China into.

Some Japanese explain that Korean anti-Japanese sentiment is originated from Sinocentrism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism.China>Korea>Japan. And according to Confucious, it is just unforgivable that a subordinate rule a boss.That is why Korea still have relatively good relations with China when China played important role dividing Korea and that is why they still have strong anti-Japan sentiments.

That’s an interesting remark. The saying of Confucious was already mentioned in the motive of Lee Seong-Gye who was against to invade China. I don’t know whether I understood you exactly but it is true that both Korea and China were offended by the fact that they were overpowered by Japan which had been regarded as a backwater for a long time. That explains somewhat the intensity of hate toward Japan in both countries. (Chinsese may have been infuriated more because they regarded themselves as the first in Asia.) But that fact is not a main explanation of good sino-korean relationship compared to that of Korea and Japan. As I repeated, Korea had considerable damages twice due to Japan but not much from China whatever the real intention of China was.

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16 Responses to “Historical relationship of Korea and China”

  1. ponta said

    “Korea was subordinate to China but it was a voluntary move rather than being forced. China was regarded as a big brother to Korea and Korea was regarded as a small brother for China. While Viet Nam had continuous confilct with China, Korea chose to remain peaceful with China lowering her status”

    From what I’ve read written by a Korean historian 崔基鎬, Korea surrendered under the threat of Chinese army, sacrificing Koreans farmers.*1.

    ” But it was not a big deal for Korea because it was voluntary and just formal”

    迎恩門

    Was it not big deal?

    “The list didn’t include any woman unlike what you know. Women had to be sent for Mongolian Empire and to Qing Dynasty after the war but Ming dynasty of China never demanded them.”

    “Korea paid tribute (朝貢) to China every year. It was reciprocal because China always gave something to Korea for the tribute. The list didn’t include any woman unlike what you know. Women had to be sent for Mongolian Empire and to Qing Dynasty after the war but Ming dynasty of China never demanded them.”

    Sure Korea sent woman to Monglian Empire, http://147.46.181.118/IMAGE/SNUG0639.PDF
    p26
    But according to historians she sent 妓生 and 宦官 every year to the 清 dynasty also until 19 centruy.*2
    .
    ” I guess many Koreans are not aware of the existence of this association.”
    Kim Wan Sop pointed out many Korean historians do not want to mention it because it is not convenient for their version of Korean history.

    “Korea was not humiliated by China. Korea had a vassal relationship with China but the relationship didn’t force anything against the wil of Koreans.”
    Do Koreans vonlountarily want to be subordinate to China while smaller country like Vietnam fought against China? Is it not hiumiliation? And i wonder whose will was that.

    “The relationship was enjoyed by the elite group of Korea. They even called themselves as a small China (小中華).”
    The pro-Japan Korean people like 李完用 were elite.李完用 spoke English, he wrote Chinese letters beautifully. He was very proud of Korea. And they are the people who suggested Japanese government to educate Koreans in Japanese.

    ” it’s not something that China can be blamed 100%. North Korean government wanted her intervention. If China had come to Korea without request, Koreans would have felt grudge against the nation. But in this case, we cannot help blaming North Korean government which wanted to take over South with all means”

    The situation is similar to the relation with Japan.
    Korean revolutionary forces wanted Japan’s intervention. They requested.

    Now I am saying all this not because I want to justify Japanese colonization, (as i said, it was wrong) but because I want to know the roots of anti-Japanese sentiment in Korea.
    In my veiw, if Korea has anti-Japanese sentiments, she should have anti-China sentiments based on the simliar himiliation they received. But it seems that Koreans do not have anti-Chinese sentiments, so I wonder if the reason is that they hold Confucious hierarchy in their minds.

    *1清に対する敵意を明らかにしたために、
    清は満人、モンゴル人、漢人で組織した10万人の大軍からなる朝鮮遠征軍を組織して、
    1636年12月9日、大宗自らが鴨緑江を渡り、侵入してきた。

    清軍は無人の野を行くように、短時間でソウル近郊に到達した。

    人祖王の朝廷は、金縛りにあったように動かなかった。
    情報の判断は事実に基づくことなく、党派閥の利害によって決められた。
    この時も、与党である西人派内部の主和派と斤和派の論争によって、左右された。

    いつもの事とは言え、李朝の暗愚な専制王は、
    危機に陥れば、ただ狼狽して、どこかへ避難し、後は野となれ山となれだった。

    百姓が皆殺しにされようが、餓死しようが、構ったことではなかった。
    王は派閥に従順でありさえすれば、
    天上唯一王であり続けられ、幸福が保障されていたからである。

    宮廷は「ソウルに清軍がソウルに肉迫」
    という報せによって、はじめて清軍来襲を認めて、緊急会議を開いた。

    廟義は、主和派の崔鳴吉を、敵陣に派遣することを決定した。
    そして、謀略によって、敵のソウル侵入を遅らせながら、江華島へ避難する時間を稼ごうとした。
    その一方で、朝廷は、
    明軍に援軍の来援に全てを託していたから、
    明に援軍の派遣を要請する急使を送ることになった。

    同時に全国に檄文を飛ばして、百姓達に、清軍を撃退せよと命じた。
    朝廷は、狂気に駆られていたとしか言いようがなかった。
    愚かにも外国に自国の安全を全て委ね、外国には外国の事情があることを考えなかった。

    この時、明は既に風前の灯火で滅亡する寸前であった。

    東林党と非東林党の抗争と、宦官の専横によって
    朽ち木のように倒れようとしていて、到底、仁祖の援軍要請に応じられるような状況ではなかった。
    明の朝廷は、李氏朝鮮の朝廷によく似ていたのだった。
    李氏朝鮮は、まさに明のクローンのようなものだった。

    人祖王は、百姓に抗戦するよう督促していて、百官を引率して江華島へ向かった。
    しかし、江華島への道は、すでに清軍によって断たれていた。
    仁祖王は、やむを得ず、世子と大君たちを伴って、南漢山城に急いでで避難した。
    しかし、清軍は一週間そこそこで南漢山城を包囲した。

    1636年12月16日の頃であった。
    この時の清軍による朝鮮再侵攻は、朝鮮史では「丙子胡乱」として知られている。

    堕落の2000年史 崔基鎬より

    *2
    仁祖王は「受陣壇」に於いて、清の大宗に向かって九回、
    地面に頭をつけて叩頭する拝礼を行なったうえで、清からの一方的な和約を結ばされた。
    1637年1月30日のことだった。

    この和約の内容は次のようなものだった。
    一、朝鮮は、清に対し、臣としての礼を尽くすこと(中略)
    一、王の長子と次男、および大臣の子女を人質として送ること
    一、清が明を征伐する時には、求められた期日までに、遅滞なく援軍を派遣すること
    一、内外(清)の諸臣と婚姻を結び、誼を固くすること
    一、城郭の増築や、修繕については、清に事前に許諾を受けること
    一、清に対して黄金100両、白銀1000両と20余種の物品を歳幣(毎年納める金と品物)として上納すること
    一、皇帝の誕生日である聖節、正朔である正月1日、冬至と、慶弔の使臣は、明との旧例に従って送ること(中略)

    この和約によって李氏朝鮮はその後、19世紀に至るまで、
    清に毎年、全国から選ばれた美女である妓生と宦官を貢いだ。(中略)

  2. urbanara said

    you don’t seem to understand the main point of what I’m saying. Qing dynasty of China is not considered as real China. Qing dynasty was created by nomad people who were based in Manchuria. They conquered China and invaded Korea after Seven Years War. Yes, Korea had big humiliation with the country but so did China. (Korean king had to kneel upon in front of the king of Qing: Chinese (Ming) emperor commited suicide after the defeat.) Qing was hated by both Korea and China. It was another Mongolian Empire. The main difference is that Mongolia still lives on while Manchurian people lost their identity.

    Things that you mentioned such as 迎恩門 and women were all for Qing dynasty. Korean people may destest them today only if the country Manchuria exist now.

    “Do Koreans vonlountarily want to be subordinate to China while smaller country like Vietnam fought against China? Is it not hiumiliation? And i wonder whose will was that.”

    Viet Nam is not smaller than Korea. It’s a lot bigger. You didn’t read my post intently. I already explained it was the will of Lee Seong-Gye, the founder of Joseon. The elite group agreed with his policy while common people had no choice as usual. 事大 (summoning the big) was the foreign policy and one of main ideologies of Joseon. It was an order which kept peace and cooperation between two countries. It is an European thought (or your thought) without seeing the circumstance of East Asia to think it was humilation. What is important is, the policy was created and kept by Koreans. When you did something voluntarily, it can’t be humiliation.

    “The pro-Japan Korean people like 李完用 were elite.李完用 spoke English, he wrote Chinese letters beautifully. He was very proud of Korea. And they are the people who suggested Japanese government to educate Koreans in Japanese.”

    During Joseon dynasty, over 90% of elites were pro-China (Ming). Pro-japanese idea was created at the end of the dynasty. Japan was too quick to take over Korea before those pro-japanese people persuaded more sympathisers in Korea. If there had been enough consensus for japanese rule among Korean population, japan will not be hated today and maybe Korea will still be a part of japan. but which country in the world wants voluntary annexation to her neighbor?

    “The situation is similar to the relation with Japan.
    Korean revolutionary forces wanted Japan’s intervention. They requested.”

    What is the Korean revolutionary forces? I think you pointed out again one of minor groups in Korea.

    “Now I am saying all this not because I want to justify Japanese colonization, (as i said, it was wrong) but because I want to know the roots of anti-Japanese sentiment in Korea.
    In my veiw, if Korea has anti-Japanese sentiments, she should have anti-China sentiments based on the simliar himiliation they received. But it seems that Koreans do not have anti-Chinese sentiments, so I wonder if the reason is that they hold Confucious hierarchy in their minds.”

    Koreans were not born to hate Japan. They have no reason to hate particularly japan when the nation didn’t do anything to Korea. Joseon was not warm to Japan but it didn’t hate the country before Seven Years war.

    As you said, Koreans don’t have much anti chinese sentiment but the main reason is not Confucious hierarchy. If Korea applies the confucian hierarchy in today’s foreign relation, Japan may be placed upper than China because it’s a more influential country today. South Korea is no longer a dear ally of China, either. The new baby brother of China is North Korea. China (not Qing dynasty from Manchuria nor Mongolian Empire) hasn’t forced Korea anything much against her will while Japan did. It is a very simple logic to have no reason to hate someone who didn’t force anything to me.

    I don’t understand why you put the japanese article there while you know that i don’t speak japanese at all. it looks like a story between Qing and Joseon though. It’s irrelavant again.

    p.s. The links to images are not working. I hope to see them.

  3. ponta said

    Thank you for the well-thought analysis.
    I still have a few things that I want to discuss..
    You say Korean people hate Qing dynasty of China but since its identity was lost, they do not hate China now.
    But isn’t it true Qing dynasty is a part of history of China.
    And I do not understand why you think it is not “real” China.

    Besides, some korean people still talk about hidyoshi having invaded korea,they hold grudges.But the govenment of hideyoshi disappeared 400 years ago, while people of korea had to send 3000 beautiful women to Qing dynasty until 19 century.
    I still wonder why they hold asymmetrical attitude toward Japan and China

    “The elite group agreed with his policy while common people had no choice as usual. 事大 (summoning the big) was the foreign policy and one of main ideologies of Joseon”
    “What is the Korean revolutionary forces? I think you pointed out again one of minor groups in Korea.”
    I do not think it was a minor group.Hanja(一進會) is the largest political party ever made which consisted of hundreds of thousands of revolutionary forces according to Kim Wan Sop. On another historian estimate it consisted of a million of members.

    (As I said, Kim pointed out that Korean historians wanted to hide the fact.) And in those days, farmers suffered under the regime, and some elites knew what was going on outside Korea. The revolutionary forces, from farmers classes, religious groups, intellectuals, united , based on 事大、they call Japanese govenment for help.(Actually they wanted Korea to be one of the state of Japan like ,say, Texas state of the US, but the Japanese government rejected the idea. still 一進會 supported Japanese govenment as shown in the photo.It might be good idea to read Kim Wan Sop’s book.I read it in Japanese.it was very interesting.)

    “If Korea applies the confucian hierarchy in today’s foreign relation, Japan may be placed upper than China because it’s a more influential country today. South Korea is no longer a dear ally of China, either.”

    Since Japan is lower than China and Korea according to Confucian hierarchy, but at the same time Japan happen to be more influentainl than Korea now, koreans hold grudges against Japan while China is okay for them, according to those who insist the theroy.

    “I don’t understand why you put the japanese article”
    Sorry, I just want to make sure that I am quoting and rephrasing a historian accurately.

    “p.s. The links to images are not working. I hope to see them.”
    I do not know why. The link worked from my computer.

    .

  4. urbanara said

    “You say Korean people hate Qing dynasty of China but since its identity was lost, they do not hate China now.
    But isn’t it true Qing dynasty is a part of history of China.
    And I do not understand why you think it is not “real” China.”

    I guess it can be a tricky part to some people. Qing dynasty is a part of history of China but it wasn’t a state established by (Han) Chinese. Manchus who established Qing used their own language and they were not much into confucianism. That’s why they could demand women from Korea and force queue tail hair style to Chinese. Any encyclopedia article on Qing dynasty including Wiki will make you understand Qing was one of many nomadic tribes which conquered China proper.

    Japanese wikipedia is saying “清の中国支配”.(The only japanese letter I know is the one looking like reversed “e” meaning “of”) I think this phrase represents what i’ve been saying all along. Both China and Korea were invaded by Qing at that time. China (Ming) was annexed to Qing and Korea was forced to pay tributes.

    “I do not think it was a minor group.Hanja(一進會) is the largest political party ever made which consisted of hundreds of thousands of revolutionary forces according to Kim Wan Sop. On another historian estimate it consisted of a million of members.”

    I cannot make judgement on this because i can’t verify which side is true. (Kim or the other Korean historians) It will require me a lot of research to verify this, which is impossible for now.

    For Kim Wan seop, I searched his name on the internet. I found a lot of his spamming in Korean sites. The spam message says he’s unjustly oppressed by Korean people and book stores are refusing to accept his books. He continues that he’s the one holding the truth. He also wrote down his bank account number for people to buy the books personally from him. It is wrong to judge what people say from what they do but his behavior is typically propagandist. I cannot imagine any sane historian spams internet sites revealing his bank account number especially when his book is available in a well known Korean online book store.

    his book available in Interpark
    http://www.interpark.com/bookPark/sitemap/BookDisplay.jsp?COMM_001=0000400000&COMM_002=0&GOODS_NO=1943298

    One of his spams in Korean association of German language education site (You may notice his spam even if you don’t speak Korean. Scroll down the page.)
    http://du.german.or.kr/ez2000/ezboard.cgi?db=notice&action=read&dbf=35&page=0&depth=1&type=main

    “Since Japan is lower than China and Korea according to Confucian hierarchy, but at the same time Japan happen to be more influentainl than Korea now, koreans hold grudges against Japan while China is okay for them, according to those who insist the theroy.”

    Your Confucian hierarchy is dead long ago at least in Korea although there may be some Chinese who still believe in it. No one thinks that “China has a superior ground to Korea thus it should be repsected more than Japan.” Now Koreans are fiercely nationalistic, why would they think China is a superior being especially when the nation is no longer the main source of higher culture?

    North Koreans may have reasons to respect China more because their government is so dependant on its protector. However I don’t see any reason for South Koreans to regard China as her big brother with the dead ideology.

    I get the following message whenever I click your links. “ご指定いただいたURLでは、ページが見つかりません。” I tried to copy the adress and paste it into the browser but the result is same.

  5. ponta said

    Thanks
    Kim Wan Sop is not a historian proper. But if you read it, you would find he is not as crazy a man as Korean people think.
    崔基鎬 is a hisotrian. I think He is a professor in Korea.

    “your Confucian hierarchy is dead long ago at least in Korea”
    I agree. I mean, those who advocate that Korean sitll has 小中華 ideology also says Korea gave up on China. So Korea wants to build her own hierachy.And in that system, Japan come third or fourth or in a very low position.
    .

    The point is how we can exlain the different attitude toward China and Japan.
    Hideyosi regime has been dead for long time, his regime was completely thrown away by Tokugawa. still Korean people talk about Hideyoshi,Japan having invaded Korea..
    清 dyanacity was a humiliation for Koreans. It is dead now. Koreans rarely talk about it.

    Some Korean voloutarily got subodinated to China, but the farmers and the slave suffered. The population did not increase under this regime.(if I remember correctly).It was a regime similar to North Korea at present according to 崔基鎬
    Then some Koreans called Japan for help. And Korea was annexed.It might have been a humiliation for Koreans, but the population increased. The economy went relatively well.But at the end of WWⅡ Korea was freed.
    Then some (North)Koreans called China to help them. Korea was divided,and still is devided.

    Why is it that Koreans have grudge only against Japan, while they had simliar experience under China? And for some people, 小中華 ideology is the answer.What do you think?

    (which link is not working? I’ll look for the link which is working if you want)

  6. urbanara said

    “I agree. I mean, those who advocate that Korean sitll has 小中華 ideology also says Korea gave up on China. So Korea wants to build her own hierachy.And in that system, Japan come third or fourth or in a very low position.”

    I didn’t know there are such people who still believe in that. US may be new China for them.

    “Hideyosi regime has been dead for long time, his regime was completely thrown away by Tokugawa. still Korean people talk about Hideyoshi,Japan having invaded Korea..
    清 dyanacity was a humiliation for Koreans. It is dead now. Koreans rarely talk about it.”

    first of all, Seven years war is not a primary reason of Japan hate. If i can express it in numbers, hate toward japan may be due to colonialism(60%), Dokdo(30%), Seven Years War and the fact that they invaded twice (10%).

    Seven Years War and the invasion of Qing have an important difference, too. As the name says, seven years war took seven years while Qing finished Korean in a year. Seven years war devastated a lot more Korea. Numourous korean monuments were burnt and arable land was seriously reduced. Seven years war changed Joseon so much that the war is considered as the line dividing early-Joseon(朝鮮前期) and late-Joseon.

    hideyoshi was japanese and he’s one of important historic figures of japan. the military government of hedeyoshi also reminds Koreans of militarism of Japanese Empire though they are not directly related.

    “Some Korean voloutarily got subodinated to China, but the farmers and the slave suffered. The population did not increase under this regime.(if I remember correctly).It was a regime similar to North Korea at present according to 崔基鎬”

    Most non-western countries had small popluation before accepting modern western medicine. population increase under the colonial rule is largely due to the introduction of western medicine and advance of agricultural technology.

    it is true that north korea has many aspects of joseon dynasty such as succession rule, hierarchy, class system, no exchange with other countries and surveillance on people.

    “Then some Koreans called Japan for help. And Korea was annexed.It might have been a humiliation for Koreans, but the population increased. The economy went relatively well.But at the end of WWⅡ Korea was freed.
    Then some (North)Koreans called China to help them. Korea was divided,and still is devided.”

    i can’t understant your main point here. why was Korea poor and backward country with a lot of mouths to feed at the moment of liberation(1945) if japanese colonial rule had benefited them so much?

    “Why is it that Koreans have grudge only against Japan, while they had simliar experience under China? And for some people, 小中華 ideology is the answer.What do you think?”

    you are repeating what you’ve said endlessly. please present the ‘humiliations’ by china which will convince me and other koreans. i don’t understand the SIMILAR experience under china. china didn’t invade korea and didn’t colonize it unlike japan.

    can you say yes to any question below?

    did china dismantle the imperial palace of korea to construct their headquarters?.
    did china ever remove the name of korea from the world map?
    did china ever want that koreans become chinese?
    did china ever force koreans to help their wars?
    did china kill koreans who wanted their independence?
    does china have any territorial dispute with south korea?

    (all the links except the picture of the gate don’t work.)

  7. ponta said

    Thanks
    Nou.
    First let me tell you , the whole point of my argument is not that Koreans should hate China,but that it is unreasonable to hate Japan if they realize that Korea has been humiliated just as much by China. And if they do hate Japan, realizing that they are humiliated by China, they must be holding 小中華 ideology. And I think the ideology is unreasonble.

    But anyway,・・・・
    “hideyoshi was japanese and he’s one of important historic figures of japan.”
    hideyoshi is one of improtant figurre, so is Quine dynacity.
    And hideyosi was not a ruler of the land of Japan as it is now.

    “why was Korea poor and backward country with a lot of mouths to feed at the moment of liberation(1945) if japanese colonial rule had benefited them so much?”
    Because it was a part of Japan, and Japan was poor at that time, and foods was rationed, and people in Japan were starving too.
    But economically it was much better than Koreans now thinks it was.
    http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2005/11/the_korean_econ.html

    “you are repeating what you’ve said endlessly. please present the ‘humiliations’ by china which will convince me and other
    koreans.””
    I am repeating because you are not convinced by my argument.
    (^_-)
    Is it not humiliation that other countries like vietnam fought with China while Korea had been vassel state?
    Is it not humiliation that the king of Korea kneel down if front of Chinese and China regarded the king of Korea below the courty of China while the king of Korea exploited the Korean farmer?
    Probabley I can cite many more.But remember my point is not that Koreans should feel grudge against China, but that it is unreasonable, unless they hold small chiana ideology, that they hold grudge only against Japan and that small china ideology itself is unreasonable.

    “did china dismantle the imperial palace of korea to construct their headquarters?.”
    No, but China destroyed or odered to destroy some of cultural heritage of Korea, didn’t it?
    “did china ever remove the name of korea from the world map?
    did china ever want that koreans become chinese?””
    No, because she looked down on Koreans., but they changed the Korean names like Chinese, isn’t that why Koreans are using the name like Chinese?or did koreans volountarily change their name like Chinese again?Is it not humiliation?

    “did china ever force koreans to help their wars?”
    Wait, it is true that Koreans were conspricted but those who were conspricted ended up while they were trained. And 300000 young Koreans volountarily applied for Japanese army in 1944.
    see also http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2006/01/koizumi_to_anno.html

    “did china kill koreans who wanted their independence?”
    Who need to kill when the King kneel down and bow as often as 9 times?But I am sure they would have killed Koreans if there were people who try to fight with Chinese crying for independence.
    Do you really believe China and Korea were so friendly that China did not threat Korea?

    “does china have any territorial dispute with south korea? ”
    Not as far as I know now, .
    But, takshima-Docdo issue can be settled peacefully in my opinion, I do understand why they link it to the hatred of the colonial period.

    That said,, I enjoy discussion, I hope you do too.(^_-)

  8. urbanara said

    “it is unreasonable to hate Japan if they realize that Korea has been humiliated just as much by China.”

    sorry, i don’t understand it any bit. it’s YOUR opinion, not general opinion of Koreans. there’s no reason for koreans to be more generous to china today. it’s like i, as a Korean, am shouting over and over “Japanese people, you are humilated by US because their army is still on your soil!” while japanese people don’t think so at all.

    “Is it not humiliation that other countries like vietnam fought with China while Korea had been vassel state?
    Is it not humiliation that the king of Korea kneel down if front of Chinese and China regarded the king of Korea below the courty of China while the king of Korea exploited the Korean farmer?”

    no, they were not humilations. korea and viet nam had just different ways of survival and different circumstances vis-a-vis china. you look the ideology of hundreds years ago by the standard of modern politics. so to speak, you don’t understand cultural relativism. your view is not much different from that Inca Empire was viewed as extremely barbarious to Christian Spaniards. It is very interesting that your point resembles a lot japanese rhetoric of the 19th century to Korea. the japanese told Koreans to become independent from china (so we can grab you easier without chinese interferences.)
    it must be humilation if they happend today but it was not so at that time. it was as natural as people should repsect their parents and their king. 

    this discussion cannot go further until you understand the above thing mentioned. i hope you can study more on that subject. it may not be easy for foreigners to understand the particular relationship of korea and china at that time.

    Recommended reading materials for you

    http://www.worldscibooks.com/eastasianstudies/etextbook/4732/4732_chap1.pdf
    excellent document(pdf) to understand the nature of sadae(事大)

    http://www.koreaeconomy.org/gw/gwCgcV.html?g_menu=0301&g_regseq=200601040001
    (summary: how naturally koreans accepted China and its culture)

    http://english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20040823/301900000020040823092324E3.html
    (summay: how China can anger korea with history, which shows korea has no favoritism for china today.)

    http://www.metafuture.org/Articles/SPEECH_KOREA_futures.htm
    sadae (`serving the greater’ or paying ostensible tribute to a hegemonic power to pacify it and keep it OUT OF your domestic affairs)

  9. ponta said

    thanks nou
    “it’s like i, as a Korean, am shouting over and over “Japanese people, you are humilated by US because their army is still on your soil!” while japanese people don’t think so at all.”
    No my point is different. If I apply my argument to your case, it is rather like, shouting over, do not hate Korea if you do not hate the US.
    ” it’s like i, as a Korean, am shouting over and over “Japanese people, you are humilated by US because their army is still on your soil!” while japanese people don’t think so at all.”
    Okay, it was not humiliation in veiw of Koreans in those days.Sure what counts as “humilation” differ according to times and place.
    I agree.

    “It is very interesting that your point resembles a lot japanese rhetoric of the 19th century to Korea. the japanese told Koreans to become independent from china (so we can grab you easier without chinese interferences.)”
    Is it? Probably they also told Koreans to become independent of the regime at that time.It is like saying North Korean people to become independent of Kim regime at present.(now again, I am not saying the colonizaiton was right, any colonizaition is wrong)

    ” it may not be easy for foreigners to understand the particular relationship of korea and china at that time.”
    Thanks, I’ll study these documents.

  10. urbanara said

    hello, ponta,

    i’m sorry to respond you late. i was busy and tired this week because i started working in a new place. i hope you enjoyed reading those documents. don’t hesitate if you have questions on them. i will be able to answer you at least in the weekends.

    happy new (lunar) year

  11. Matt said

    Hey, no new posts! Whats going on?

  12. urbanara said

    you’ve kept visiting my blog!

    i’m really busy nowadays because i found my first ‘real’ job. now i’m one of corporate slaves. i work 9 to 9 most times. i even work on saturday on bi-weekly basis. Grrr..

    i hope i can resume my blog soon. i have enough stories to tell.

  13. hot teen said

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